{"id":382,"date":"2004-03-13T11:07:29","date_gmt":"2004-03-13T10:07:29","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/wordpress\/blog\/werte-diskussion-mit-herrn-g-herrn-m-und-herrn-a\/"},"modified":"2023-12-18T08:49:50","modified_gmt":"2023-12-18T07:49:50","slug":"werte-diskussion-mit-herrn-g-herrn-m-und-herrn-a","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/werte-diskussion-mit-herrn-g-herrn-m-und-herrn-a\/","title":{"rendered":"Werte-Diskussion mit Herrn G., Herrn M. und Herrn A."},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Seit einigen Jahren liege ich im Clinch mit Herrn G. \u00fcber die sinnvolle Verwendung und \u00fcberhaupt die Bedeutung von sogenannten &#8220;Werten&#8221; &#8211; oder wie aus der Schule &#8220;&#8230; und Normen.&#8221; Ich musste dabei immer an einen Disput zwischen Heinz-Klaus Metzger und Theodor W. Adorno denken, den diese 1957 \u00fcber das &#8220;Altern der neuen Musik&#8221; f\u00fchrten. Und der der ging so:<br \/>\n<br \/>\n<cite>METZGER Ja, selbstverst\u00e4ndlich bin ich darin mit Ihnen einig. Es scheint mir nur so, wenn mir der Begriff der Qualit\u00e4t oder der Begriff des Wertes ein wenig fragw\u00fcrdig geworden ist, so m\u00f6chte ich damit nicht Partei ergreifen &#8230;<\/p>\n<p>ADORNO Den Ausdruck Wert nehme ich nie in den Mund, darf ich sagen. Aber entschuldigen Sie, da\u00df ich Sie unterbreche.<\/p>\n<p>METZGER Ich glaube, Sie haben ihn eben gebraucht.<\/p>\n<p>ADORNO Nein, ich habe ihn nur gebraucht &#8230;, ich habe mich nur von ihm abgegrenzt; ich wollte nur sagen, da\u00df ich ebenso gegen Wert wie gegen Wertfreiheit stehe und glaube, da\u00df die immanente Analyse des Werkes selbst ein Drittes ist gegen\u00fcber diesen beiden starren Vorstellungen. Das wollte ich eigentlich sagen.<\/p>\n<p>METZGER Ja, damit bin ich sehr gerne einverstanden.<\/p>\n<p><i>Heinz-Klaus Metzger: Musik wozu. Literatur zu Noten, hrsg. von Rainer Riehn, Frankfurt\/Main 1980, S. 92.<\/i><\/cite><br \/>\n<br \/>\nDer vielzitierte Werteverlust, den man in zahllosen Disputen \u00fcber die gegenw\u00e4rtige Gesellschaft herbeiruft, um die &#8220;verlorene&#8221; Jugend zu charakterisieren, hat doch l\u00e4ngst seine Spur bei den Erwachsenen, deren Werteverlust sich in der Berufung auf eherne Werte darstellt.<\/p>\n<p>Die Despotie der Werte aus M\u00fcndern der Bekehrten: eine s\u00e4kulare Glaubensfrage.<\/p>\n<div class=\"shariff\"><ul class=\"shariff-buttons theme-white orientation-horizontal buttonsize-small\"><li class=\"shariff-button mastodon shariff-nocustomcolor\" style=\"background-color:#563ACC\"><a href=\"https:\/\/s2f.kytta.dev\/?text=Werte-Diskussion%20mit%20Herrn%20G.%2C%20Herrn%20M.%20und%20Herrn%20A. https%3A%2F%2Fwww.kritische-masse.de%2Flogbuch%2Fwerte-diskussion-mit-herrn-g-herrn-m-und-herrn-a%2F\" title=\"Bei Mastodon teilen\" aria-label=\"Bei Mastodon teilen\" role=\"button\" rel=\"noopener nofollow\" class=\"shariff-link\" style=\"; 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Ich musste dabei immer an einen Disput zwischen Heinz-Klaus Metzger und Theodor W. Adorno denken, den diese 1957 \u00fcber das &#8220;Altern der neuen Musik&#8221; f\u00fchrten. [&hellip;]<\/p>\n<div class=\"shariff\"><ul class=\"shariff-buttons theme-white orientation-horizontal buttonsize-small\"><li class=\"shariff-button mastodon shariff-nocustomcolor\" style=\"background-color:#563ACC\"><a href=\"https:\/\/s2f.kytta.dev\/?text=Werte-Diskussion%20mit%20Herrn%20G.%2C%20Herrn%20M.%20und%20Herrn%20A. https%3A%2F%2Fwww.kritische-masse.de%2Flogbuch%2Fwerte-diskussion-mit-herrn-g-herrn-m-und-herrn-a%2F\" title=\"Bei Mastodon teilen\" aria-label=\"Bei Mastodon teilen\" role=\"button\" rel=\"noopener nofollow\" class=\"shariff-link\" style=\"; background-color:#6364FF; color:#6364FF\" target=\"_blank\"><span class=\"shariff-icon\" style=\"fill:#6364FF\"><svg width=\"75\" height=\"79\" viewBox=\"0 0 75 79\" fill=\"none\" xmlns=\"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/2000\/svg\"><path d=\"M37.813-.025C32.462-.058 27.114.13 21.79.598c-8.544.621-17.214 5.58-20.203 13.931C-1.12 23.318.408 32.622.465 41.65c.375 7.316.943 14.78 3.392 21.73 4.365 9.465 14.781 14.537 24.782 15.385 7.64.698 15.761-.213 22.517-4.026a54.1 54.1 0 0 0 .01-6.232c-6.855 1.316-14.101 2.609-21.049 1.074-3.883-.88-6.876-4.237-7.25-8.215-1.53-3.988 3.78-.43 5.584-.883 9.048 1.224 18.282.776 27.303-.462 7.044-.837 14.26-4.788 16.65-11.833 2.263-6.135 1.215-12.79 1.698-19.177.06-3.84.09-7.692-.262-11.52C72.596 7.844 63.223.981 53.834.684a219.453 219.453 0 0 0-16.022-.71zm11.294 12.882c5.5-.067 10.801 4.143 11.67 9.653.338 1.48.471 3 .471 4.515v21.088h-8.357c-.07-7.588.153-15.182-.131-22.765-.587-4.368-7.04-5.747-9.672-2.397-2.422 3.04-1.47 7.155-1.67 10.735v6.392h-8.307c-.146-4.996.359-10.045-.404-15.002-1.108-4.218-7.809-5.565-10.094-1.666-1.685 3.046-.712 6.634-.976 9.936v14.767h-8.354c.109-8.165-.238-16.344.215-24.5.674-5.346 5.095-10.389 10.676-10.627 4.902-.739 10.103 2.038 12.053 6.631.375 1.435 1.76 1.932 1.994.084 1.844-3.704 5.501-6.739 9.785-6.771.367-.044.735-.068 1.101-.073z\"\/><defs><linearGradient id=\"paint0_linear_549_34\" x1=\"37.0692\" y1=\"0\" x2=\"37.0692\" y2=\"79\" 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alt='' src='https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/501e6823cd63847c2e8d3e53092cfbaf5f572cd136981466e10cf90502235bec?s=96&#038;d=blank&#038;r=g' srcset='https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/501e6823cd63847c2e8d3e53092cfbaf5f572cd136981466e10cf90502235bec?s=192&#038;d=blank&#038;r=g 2x' class='avatar avatar-96 photo' height='96' width='96' loading='lazy' decoding='async'\/>"],"featured_video":null,"jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":6627,"url":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/makulatur\/","url_meta":{"origin":382,"position":0},"title":"Makulatur","author":"der huflaikhan","date":"23. Dezember 2023","format":false,"excerpt":"Nach Sch\u00e4tzungen aus dem Jahr 2001 werden j\u00e4hrlich etwa 16 Millionen B\u00fccher makuliert. Jetzt geh\u00f6rt meine Dissertation auch dazu \u2013 ca. 250 Exemplare, eher noch mehr. ich habe mir noch f\u00fcnf Exemplare sichern d\u00fcrfen. So kanns gehen. Adieu. Bewerben muss ich mich damit nicht mehr. Der Inhalt ist an sich\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;Angriff auf \u2026&quot;","block_context":{"text":"Angriff auf \u2026","link":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/thema\/angriffauf\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"Makulatur. Foto: Hufner","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/12\/409960711_10161201210079182_5883327723234739755_n.jpg?fit=1200%2C900&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/12\/409960711_10161201210079182_5883327723234739755_n.jpg?fit=1200%2C900&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/12\/409960711_10161201210079182_5883327723234739755_n.jpg?fit=1200%2C900&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/12\/409960711_10161201210079182_5883327723234739755_n.jpg?fit=1200%2C900&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/12\/409960711_10161201210079182_5883327723234739755_n.jpg?fit=1200%2C900&ssl=1&resize=1050%2C600 3x"},"classes":[]},{"id":947,"url":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/ist-der-eigentlich-bekannt\/","url_meta":{"origin":382,"position":1},"title":"Ist der eigentlich bekannt \u0085","author":"huflaikhan","date":"11. Dezember 2004","format":false,"excerpt":"oder habe ich mich mit gro\u00dfer Versp\u00e4tung komplett be\u00f6mmelt. Sagte doch gestern abend bei der redaktionellen Speisung in Regensburgs erster und letzter Gastst\u00e4tte die Genossin Martina W., auf ihrem Computer gehe immer so ein gelber Bildschirm vom Anti-Norton-Virus auf. Das ersparte ihr nicht den Vorwurf, dass sie wohl ein \u00e4hnliches\u2026","rel":"","context":"\u00c4hnlicher Beitrag","block_context":{"text":"\u00c4hnlicher Beitrag","link":""},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":8747,"url":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/aus-dem-leben-eines-taugenichts-theodor-w-adorno-nach-tilmann-krause-die-welt\/","url_meta":{"origin":382,"position":2},"title":"Aus dem Leben eines Taugenichts: Theodor W. Adorno nach Tilmann Krause [Die WELT]","author":"der huflaikhan","date":"10. Februar 2018","format":false,"excerpt":"\"Selbst die Studenten, die sich gegen ein Gomringer-Gedicht an der Wand ihrer Hochschule emp\u00f6ren, weil es angeblich sexistisch ist, sind in dieser Hinsicht Kinder von Adorno, auch wenn sie den Namen nie geh\u00f6rt haben sollten.\" [Quelle: Die Welt. Tilmann Krause: Der Meisterdenker der 68er taugte einfach nichts] In welcher Hinsicht?\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;\u00c4sthetische Kunstfehler&quot;","block_context":{"text":"\u00c4sthetische Kunstfehler","link":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/thema\/aesthetische_kunstfehler\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"Ausschnitt Bach","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-content\/uploads\/2004\/10\/20041015-bach-haltet-detail.jpg?fit=500%2C534&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":3658,"url":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/berliner-u-bahn-adorno\/","url_meta":{"origin":382,"position":3},"title":"Berliner U-Bahn: Adorno","author":"huflaikhan","date":"12. Februar 2017","format":false,"excerpt":"Auf dem Weg zu einer Geburtstagsfeier neulich Donnerstag am fr\u00fchen Abend in der U-Bahn. Informationen einholen \u00fcber die Bildschirme mit dem Berliner Fenster. Dann auf dem rechten Bildschirm dies: Kunst will das, was noch nicht war, doch alles, was sie ist, war schon. Adorno Bis man es recht begriffen hat\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;Angriff auf \u2026&quot;","block_context":{"text":"Angriff auf \u2026","link":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/thema\/angriffauf\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"Heine auch in Berlin. Foto: Hufner","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/02\/werden_sie_kostenlos_c_hufner.jpg?fit=1200%2C696&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/02\/werden_sie_kostenlos_c_hufner.jpg?fit=1200%2C696&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/02\/werden_sie_kostenlos_c_hufner.jpg?fit=1200%2C696&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/02\/werden_sie_kostenlos_c_hufner.jpg?fit=1200%2C696&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/02\/werden_sie_kostenlos_c_hufner.jpg?fit=1200%2C696&ssl=1&resize=1050%2C600 3x"},"classes":[]},{"id":9305,"url":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/swr2-wird-zu-swr-kultur-ketchup-statt-adorno-spaetwerk-laengst-vollendet\/","url_meta":{"origin":382,"position":4},"title":"SWR2 wird zu SWR Kultur \/ Ketchup statt Adorno \/ Sp\u00e4twerk l\u00e4ngst vollendet","author":"der huflaikhan","date":"28. Februar 2024","format":false,"excerpt":"Adorno und Ketchup +++ Eine begrenzte Anzahl des Wortes Kultur in der ARD +++ Das eigene kompositorische Sp\u00e4twerk +++","rel":"","context":"In &quot;Angriff auf \u2026&quot;","block_context":{"text":"Angriff auf \u2026","link":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/thema\/angriffauf\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"Bauchspuren","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/02\/IMG_5419.jpg?fit=1200%2C1199&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/02\/IMG_5419.jpg?fit=1200%2C1199&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/02\/IMG_5419.jpg?fit=1200%2C1199&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/02\/IMG_5419.jpg?fit=1200%2C1199&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/02\/IMG_5419.jpg?fit=1200%2C1199&ssl=1&resize=1050%2C600 3x"},"classes":[]},{"id":84,"url":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/komposition-und-film\/","url_meta":{"origin":382,"position":5},"title":"Komposition und Film","author":"huflaikhan","date":"15. Juni 1998","format":false,"excerpt":"\u201eComposing for the Films: Adorno, Eisler and the sociology of music\"(Historical Journal of Film, Radio and Television, Vol.18, No.4, 1998I. Komposition f\u00fcr den Film \u2013 Entstehung, \u00c4sthetik, SoziologieWenn man verallgemeinernd annimmt, da\u00df mit bestimmten historischen Situationen zugleich deren Analysen vom Verfall betroffen sind, so wird auch ein altes Buch veralten.\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;Texte&quot;","block_context":{"text":"Texte","link":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/thema\/texte\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]}],"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/382","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=382"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/382\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=382"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=382"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.kritische-masse.de\/logbuch\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=382"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}